191 The Hard Conversation Framework

If there is a difficult conversation you've been avoiding, this episode is for you.

I know most clinicians do not avoid hard conversations because they don't care. We avoid them because we are not sure how to define the problem, connect it to a standard, and communicate it in a way that actually leads to change.

In this episode, I walk you through the five-step framework I use when addressing supervisee performance concerns, professional behavior issues, and situations where expectations have become unclear. We talk about why so many supervisors get stuck in self-doubt, how imposter syndrome shows up during leadership moments, and why avoiding a conversation often creates more damage than having it.

I also share examples from my own supervision experience, including mistakes I made early in my career and how those experiences helped me develop a clearer process for addressing concerns while protecting the supervisory relationship.

This framework applies whether you supervise today, plan to supervise in the future, or simply want to strengthen your clinical leadership skills.

In this episode, you'll learn:

•  How to define supervision concerns using observable behaviors instead of labels 
•  Why every difficult conversation should connect back to a standard, contract, or ethical guideline 
•  How documentation and follow-up create accountability and growth 
•  What imposter syndrome sounds like when supervisors avoid necessary conversations

Leadership is not about avoiding discomfort. It is about addressing concerns clearly, ethically, and consistently. When you have a process, difficult conversations become less intimidating and far more effective.

Want to learn more? Check out this month's free resource from Kate Walker Training. 

If this episode raised questions about supervision, documentation, remediation, or how to hold supervisees accountable while preserving the relationship, those are exactly the conversations we continue inside the Step It Up Membership. Clinical leadership is a skill, and it's one you don't have to develop on your own.

Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit. 

Transcript

Why Supervision Needs Structure

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We don't want your supervisees to develop in spite of you. We want them to develop because of the wonderful interventions that you're going to do with them. This is your supervision practice. You've got a dream, man. This came from your counseling practice. So go do the thing. Welcome to Badman's Therapists, building practices of the money. When it's all about working smart and not hardly. And here's your host, Dr. Kate Wilbert.

Feedback Versus Formal Evaluation

SPEAKER_00 0:39

There's a difference between giving a supervisee feedback and formally evaluating them. And most supervisors blur that line until something goes wrong. Feedback is here's what I noticed. Evaluation is here's where you stand on record against a measurable standard. One's a conversation, the other is documentation that protects your supervisee, your clients, and you. Today we're building the evaluation system, what boards expect to see, how to use a standardized instrument without making supervision feel like a performance review, and why clear evaluation actually makes the supervisory relationship better, not more stressful. Counterintuitive, right? Well, we're getting into it. And the new supervisor starter kit is at KateWalkertraining.comslash bonus. Now let's get to work. Hey, I'm Dr. Kate Walker and welcome to this episode of Evaluating Your Supervisee without winging it. And I am with my colleague, Dr. Ashley Durbin, who is going to uh I give the counselor slash MFT perspective. And Dr. Ashley gives us the social work perspective. And we're really glad you're here because I think evaluation is probably the reason a lot of people dread starting to supervise because of the whole hierarchy, right? I mean, supervision, you are a gatekeeper, and there's no really getting around that. And even if you hate evaluation, at the end, you're either going to sign off on those hours or not. And that is an evaluation, right? You're either like, yay, thumbs up or no, you didn't make it. So, you know, hopefully by the end of this, you'll have some tools or at least an idea about what tools you might want to get if you're already supervising. And if you're not supervising yet, well, as usual, we want you to supervise. So we want to get all of those fears taken care of, toss them out so that you take the leap and become a supervisor. So anything you you'd add to that, Ashley? No, I'm excited to dive in. I know, evaluation. Woohoo! Let's do it. Um, all right. So feedback versus formal evaluation, why the distinction matters legally and clinically. So I could look at Ashley and like I just said a minute ago, I'm like, oh my gosh, I love your lighting. Your lighting is amazing. I wish I could get my lighting like yours. So what I'm doing is I'm I'm giving her a formative evaluation somewhat. I'm I'm complimenting her lighting, but I'm also saying, your lighting exceeds expectations. It's, you know, not it's not below expectations or fails to meet expectations. And meanwhile, I'm critiquing my own lighting and saying, oh my gosh, I look like I'm washed out and I had to adjust my window and I adjust my overhead lighting. So formative evaluation is sort of what we think of, I think, when we do supervising, supervision. It's, hey, you did well, uh, you're not doing well here. What questions do you have? Here's what I think you should do. You're giving advice, you're helping your supervisee make better decisions, correct, uh, course correct a little bit.

Documentation And Legal Protection

SPEAKER_00 4:05

But if it's not written down, if it's not archived, if it doesn't become an artifact in your supervisee's file, then legally it's going to be difficult to say you ever said that or help your supervisee follow up because you know, life, if they don't know it's a concern or you told them it was a concern, but you didn't give them anything in their hand or virtually, you guys know what I mean, in your computer, then legally, if something goes sideways, how would anyone ever know that you did the thing? And so an evaluation, you know, whether you are paper and pencil or you want to do it online and um you've got Adobe, you know, editor or whatever, you pick how you want to do it, but unless it is a summitin uh evaluation that is, I'm gonna pick up my hands as if I'm holding paper again, that you can hold in your hands or at least archive it away into your supervisey file. Uh just play the what if game, you know? What if something goes down? How would you legally defend yourself that you had ever talked about it or evaluated it? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Absolutely. And I think this is something that to me, I know some of us, not everyone probably, but some of us at least, there is an annoyance or an over, it's like, ah, that's a lot of work when we talk about when you take on students. And if they're in their master's program or maybe even bachelor's level program, depending on what you do in your practice. You know, to me, when I was a student and also when I've had students, I'm like, this is a lot of damn paperwork. I'm going through all of these details and I have to create. And maybe we haven't even actually talked about these things or done these things, but I'm expected to answer all of these questions about how the student is doing. So I think sometimes when we get postmasters, we go, Oh, thank God, we don't have to do all that paperwork anymore. We don't have to do like process recordings and videotaping and all those things. But I think our like overreaction to not having to do that is sometimes to not do anything. And from, and I've I've told a little bit of this story before, but when I was a brand new clinician coming into this field, I had two kind of people that I worked with, mentors, what have you, that were like, you know, they had been around the field for 40, 50 years. They were on the verge of retirement. And two of these individuals had been sued and had to fight. And neither of them had liability insurance because it was before the days of them saying liability insurance for everyone. And, you know, full disclosure, we all worked at the VA. They thought they were covered, they thought the government had their backs, and the government was like, Who? I don't know you. Like, that's on you, not on us. And so one of them was actually a supervisee that did the suing, another was a client. So, with the supervisee, this person who was telling us this story and, like, hey, this is what happened to me, was basically like we had so many conversations, we we had so many developmental talks, and I had nothing to show for it. I had no documentation. So the reason why it dragged out to tens of thousands of dollars, and the reason that the case went on and on and on without just automatically being closed is because this person did not have good thorough records or any sort of documentation of formal evaluation and training. And so it became a he said, she said, and I don't know if y'all have ever done that in court. I highly don't recommend zero of 10. So, this to me, that legal side is so much more, and I know that's a like worst case scenario, and I'm not trying to scare anyone off of that, but like I actually have never not documented a single supervision session, even when I'm in states that don't require it. You better believe it's in my notes because I never want to be the person that at the end of this process or in the middle or something bad happens, I go, Well, I did say it. You're just gonna have to trust me. No, we're not doing that.

What Licensing Boards Actually Require

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah, and you bring up a great point with what boards require. Y'all, all over, all over the country. I mean, everybody has different rules. And so when we, if you've heard us talk about the contract, we always have a contract, have a contract. In the state that I always give as an example, Texas does doesn't even ask for a contract unless there's a problem. And so when we when we talk about evaluation and legally, what does your licensing board require? I mean, if you take our training, one of the things we tell you to do is to look up your rules so you know where they are, right? And that you, even if you don't speak legal ease, you can at least find them with your uh the whatever that control, whatever, you know, find in your Adobe, right? And I don't work for Adobe, I just, it's on my mind. But if you are able to find them, it's like, okay, great. You don't have to memorize your rules. But long and short is most boards aren't going to say, hey, when you sign off on your supervisee's paperwork, oh, by the way, turn in all the evaluations. Okay, so we want to be real clear about that. This is probably not expected in your supervisee's file according to your licensing board. Okay, and there's a section in most board rules where you can look at the super, like what's required, what needs to be in the supervisee's file. The closest Texas gets is remediation plan or a note. They'll say a note and document any concerns and a remediation plan if there are concerns. A remediation plan is more of a consequence than an evaluation, and we talk about that in other episodes. A lot of people write a remediation plan as if it's an evaluation, like, hey, you you suck at this, so do this or else. And that's not what it's supposed to be. So when you think about evaluation, if you're already supervising right now and stories like Ashley's, you know, and I'd got one, I've got a personal one. It's not even somebody I knew, like it happened to me. If you're just shaking in your boots right now, thinking, oh my gosh, I haven't evaluated, take a deep breath. It's okay. Your board probably doesn't require you to have an evaluation in your supervisees folder if there's no problem, if there's no record of a problem. So I'm glad you're listening, though, because if there is a problem and you're thinking, oh my gosh, I don't know if I even if I can sign off on my supervisee's upgrade paperwork, or I may have to sign it with that little caveat, I don't recommend them for upgrade. And here's why. If you're in that boat right now, we've got you. Because this is, I mean, like I said, I want you to leave this with some tools or at least a way to find the

Picking Or Building Evaluation Tools

SPEAKER_00 11:14

tools. So some standardized instruments that are out there. So for counseling, the easiest thing to do is ask your supervisee, hey, do you have a copy of the evaluation that you uh used in practicum? Or if you uh supervise practicum grad students, and the university is going to give you an evaluation to evaluate their practicum students. Use it. And if you have one and you're like, well, it's not exactly what I use in practice in this practice, make your own. Nothing out there. Again, remember this isn't in any board rule. There's nothing out there that tells you what kind of evaluation to use, what it needs to look like, or anything, right? So start with the easy thing. What do you have on a scale of one to five, where five is awesome and one is not awesome. Here are some skills that you need to master, my supervisee, and start using it. Use it next week. If you want to dig down, then you do a Google search for supervision, a clinical uh counseling evaluation instrument. I'm giving you search terms. PDF. I always put PDF at the end of it because I love Adobe. No, just kidding. Because it'll give you a document instead of a website. And so I talk about the CCSR a lot. I know in my book, uh The Clinical Supervision Survival Guide, I got permission to reprint an instrument called the SPAI, which is wonderful for starting brand new supervisees. What kind of instruments do you guys have out there, Ash, for social work?

SPEAKER_01 12:54

You know, and this is one of the funny areas because they're very much like some of the other work I do in like cultural competence. There is no such thing as like a gold standard. There's just a bunch of people who created them. And then we all decided we're like, that sounds pretty good. I don't have anything better. Might as well use this. So I think those are really common ones. The SPAI is probably the most common that I've heard of and have used. But also, like, you know, there are just so much it within search work. I just think about like, sometimes we're therapists, but sometimes we're so many other things. And that's part of the difficulty with us in this evaluation conversation is if you're working with students who are in school switch workers, maybe they're doing therapy, but maybe they're doing some sort of like community or case management or clinical work that isn't necessarily therapy. And so the idea that you may have to create your own or cobble some things together, I think that's one of the things I'm a little jealous about from our LMFT and LPC friends is that like sometimes like it's just so cut and dry. Like I'm a therapist. Even if I work here or there or the other place, I'm a therapist. And we're often like, maybe I do some therapy, I do all these other things too, or maybe I don't like it's clinical in nature, but has nothing to do with that. I work in a, you know, in a community setting, for example. So um I think ours is a little harder to kind of pen down. But maybe one of you listening is the person who creates one of those gold standard evaluations for community social work or for, you know, I don't even know what, whatever, whatever it is that you do. I think we need more research and more evaluations to pick from to kind of, you know, get this field a little

Supervisees Should Ask For Evaluation

SPEAKER_01 14:39

further down the line in the evaluation space. I do think it's something that our field hasn't really prioritized that much post-graduate education.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Hey, quick pause. This month's free bonus is the new supervisor starter kit, a practical guide that walks you through exactly what to have in place before your first supervisee arrives. If you've been circling the decision to supervise and wondering where you'd even start, this is where you start. Grab it free at KateWalker Training.com slash bonus. Now, back to the episode. I mean, you're right. We have really, really good instruments. We've got a lot of instruments out there because yeah, we can just narrow down that focus to doing the therapy. But I want to talk to supervisees for a second. So if you're listening to this and you're uh you're an associate, you're an intern, you're a grad student, and you are in a place where maybe you notice your supervisor is getting, oh, I don't know, a little cranky with you, or maybe their answers are real short, or maybe they are not showing up for supervision, or you're just getting this really weird feeling. And if you're a supervisee and you hear my voice and you're actually working for your supervisor, I want you to pay attention to this because if you have a feeling, oh my gosh, do they not like me? Am I not cutting it? Uh, are they going to sign off on my hours? You know, and maybe you have experienced some kind of a retribution. Like you've you you've had a supervisor threaten to not sign off on your hours because of uh, I don't know, a thing that they are saying you can't do well. I want to empower you just for a minute. Well, I want to empower you all the time, but listen, if you're having these feelings and you have never been evaluated, that's an issue. And I want to empower you to ask for an evaluation, a formal evaluation. So, for example, if you are a brand new therapist grad student and you're really working hard on reflecting content and meaning, and you're like, I think I got this down. I think I'm pretty good at reflecting content and meaning, and I can extend it and I can summarize it and all of these things. And your supervisor still tells you, yeah, no, you're not getting it. No, you're not getting it. And you feel absolutely lost in supervision, I want you to add it to your to-do list this week. Ask for an evaluation. I just I dare you. And uh ask your supervisor, and maybe you could even come up with it. Use your favorite AI engine if you do that kind of thing, and say, give me five ways to measure reflecting content and meaning and extending meaning in a therapeutic setting. Just give me five ways to evaluate that on a scale of one to five, where five is awesome and one is not awesome. Hand that to your supervisor and say, okay, go through these five things and tell me ex circle a number, I'll sign it, you'll sign it, bam, you've got your first evaluation, and yes, that goes in your file. Okay, and if your supervisor won't put it into their file, you put it into yours. And then if a situation comes around instead of the he said, she said hellscape that we were talking about earlier, you have some documentation that says, hey, this is how I was evaluated. And shoot, in a month, do it again. In a month after that, do it again. There are lots of ways you can use evaluation to supervisees. And I hope you're not all standing around the water cooler saying, Oh my gosh, I'm so glad my supervisor doesn't evaluate me. It protects you, okay? Supervisees, it protects you.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yes. Yeah. And I think that that is something that we talk a lot about is this kind of like, I'm not the biggest fan, don't

Set A Clear Evaluation Schedule

SPEAKER_01 19:02

tell the government, I guess, of the No Surprises Act. Although I actually quite think the idea behind it is a good, you know, like we all want to know what what our care is costing us. So in this way, I mean, if you are hiring a supervisor, you are owed some things, right? Their attention, their time, they're maybe signing off on your notes, they're signing off on your license upgrade. Like this is a business transaction. And maybe they become a great mentor and a friend and something else along the way, but this is business. And so I think one of the things on both sides, supervisees and supervisors, is if you don't currently incorporate this into your functionally your supervision practice, start it, A, and then B, get your paperwork updated to include it every three months, please, every six months, if you just don't like three months, a regular form of evaluation so that both you and the supervisee know exactly the schedule, the timeline, the expectations. And, you know, there's that like saying, right? Or like expectations or planned resentments of like, you know, having expectations in this way is the opposite. We know exactly what we're supposed to be doing, we know when we're supposed to do it. And look, if we're behind a month, we didn't realize we were supposed to do it last month, now's a time. And I think to two supervisees, you know, if this is something that isn't in your contract or your plan or anything that y'all have talked about, encourage them to put it in there so that you can have that formal documentation. I know exactly what's going to be um discussed, how often. And we just kind of eliminate those, those shock and and surprise. Oh, I'm getting an evaluation, but I had no idea that I was supposed to, or I'm not getting one and I think I need one.

Separate Clinical From Admin Issues

SPEAKER_00 21:06

And that reminds me again of you're working for your supervisor, or your supervisor is in your chain of command at your agency. You know, what's what's a clinical issue versus what is an agency issue, right? I mean, if you park in the wrong place, is that going to come out on your evaluation? If you show up late, is that a clinical issue? Is it an administrative issue? Trick question. It can be both. So it's important if, especially supervisees, well, and supervisors, if you are in a chain of command with your supervisee, okay, or supervisor, get the evaluation, make sure you understand these clinical issues that are separate from administrative issues. And if you have graduated from a Kate Walker training course, we talk about the OER triad. Where or the orientation goes over everything in the contract. The orientation, your supervisor, I'm talking to you now, you're showing the supervisee their evaluation. You're telling them all the things Ashley just said. This is how often we're going to evaluate. These are the circumstances under which you might get a remediation plan. And the E is the evaluation, right? So giving the evaluation means you follow through. I remember when I took my supervisees out to lunch after we had upgraded, right? No more hierarchy. It was just, hey, good job. You graduated. You are a completely fully upgraded person. And I would say, okay, be real. Tell me, tell me what I need to improve on. And most of them said, Kate, your follow-through. You know, if you ask me to do something, ask me about it later. And so for me, that's the orientation. If I explain all these beautiful things that are going to happen in my orientation and all of the things my contract stands for, and this is what you can expect. And then I don't do it, right? That's part of your job, supervisors. So understanding a devaluation is a beautiful bridge between that contract and it's so nice to meet you. And here's my supervision practice and my dream for you and the profession, and here are the great things we're going to all do together. And then actually doing the thing, right? We don't want your supervisees to develop in spite of you. We want them to develop because of the wonderful interventions that you're going to do with them. So again, if you're shaking in your boots right now because you haven't given one yet, I want you to take that and run with it, right? This is your supervision practice. You've got a dream, man. This came from your counseling practice. So go do the thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah. And I think that that is something that, like explicitly stating out loud, because I'm the I was going to say a victim. That's not really true. I had this happen when I was, you know, very young in my career of I got an evaluation and then nothing was done with it. I just sat and stewed in it and had no idea what actions I was supposed to take from this. So, like in in follow-up, also just like explicitly saying, like, unfortunately, supervisors, I'm going to

Follow-Through And Growth Plans

SPEAKER_01 24:27

give you some homework. If you give an evaluation and there is something to work on, you now have a plan of action and you must carry through with that plan of action. This is not evaluation for evaluation's sake. This is evaluation for growth's sake. So, what do they need to do to improve? Or is this their early days and we're going, we don't need to take any action right now. You're on track. You just aren't the best clinician that's ever existed right this second, five months into this process. I expect to see X, Y, and Z at your halfway point, or when you become level two, or by the end of this process, you know, have those metrics. And like if you're ranking really low on this, everyone does because you're brand new to this. By this point, I expect to see X, Y, or Z. If you do actually see a deficiency and there's a problem, guess what? You have to do something about that. And hopefully that will be really rare. But that is what this is all for is to find out what the red flags are, not just my feelings on the matter, not just what I think about it in black and white, pen and paper or Adobe PDF versions. Here's what's going on, and here's what we plan to do. I have to formalize and have an actual formal remediation because this is so concerning, all the way down to this is totally normal. We're just going to keep an eye on it and you're you're going to progress as I know you will by the next time we check in. But you got to do something with it.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

And if that's making you quake in your boots because you're thinking, I have never had to have a big tough conversation with anybody other than my kids in your life. We have an episode for that. And I want you to do a search, and it might be right after this one, but we talk about how to have these hard conversations and not just like advice. I mean, we give you a framework. So we want this to work for you. We really want this to work for you because supervisees remember this is good for you. Supervisors,

Starter Kit And Final Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 26:31

it's definitely good for you. And put it all together, you're gonna have an amazing supervision practice because you're awesome. You're doing it one step beyond what you actually went to school to do. You're taking it and giving it back to the next generation. So we think you're awesome. Yes. Yes. All right, that's it. Thank you, and we will see you. Okie dokie. If this episode got you thinking seriously about supervision, your next step is the free new supervisor starter kit at KateWalkertraining.com slash bonus. It covers what to have in place before your first supervisee arrives contracts, documentation, expectations, the foundation that makes everything else easier. And if you're ready to build this out fully, the Supervisor Training is at KateWalkertraining.com. Links are in the description. I'll see you next week. If you love today's episode, be sure to leave a five-star review. It helps other badass therapists find the show and build practices that thrive. Big thanks to Ridgely Walker for our original fun facts and podcast intro, and to Carl Guyanella for editing this episode and making us sound amazing. See you next week.