181 Why Great Leaders Don't Avoid Tough Conversations

Avoiding hard conversations in supervision does not preserve the relationship. It weakens it.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Ashley Stephens Durbin to talk about what really gets in the way of addressing issues with supervisees. We walk through the fear, the hesitation, and the common patterns supervisors fall into when something feels off but they are not sure how to say it.

We talk about the difference between a hard conversation and a harmful one. Avoiding the conversation altogether creates risk. Waiting until frustration builds leads to reactions that feel like punishment instead of guidance. Ethical supervision requires something different. It requires structure.

We also break down the systems that make these conversations easier. Orientation, evaluation, and remediation are not just paperwork. They are the framework that allows supervisors to give clear, consistent feedback without relying on emotion or guesswork.

This conversation also addresses something many supervisors do not think about until it is too late. Documentation and consistency protect your license. When expectations are unclear or only enforced after problems escalate, supervisors can find themselves exposed to complaints or ethical concerns.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

•  Why avoiding tough conversations creates more risk, not less 
•  The difference between supportive supervision and permissiveness 
•  How to use structure to guide difficult conversations 
•  What to do if you have already delayed addressing a concern 

If you are feeling hesitant about addressing an issue with a supervisee, pause here. This is not about confidence. It is about clarity and structure. When you have a system in place, the conversation becomes part of the process instead of something you avoid.

Want to learn more? Check out this month’s free resource from Kate Walker Training.

If this episode brought up questions about supervision, documentation, or how to handle difficult situations ethically, you do not have to figure that out alone. These are the exact conversations we have inside the Step It Up Membership, where we build supervision practices that are structured, ethical, and sustainable.

Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit. 

Transcript

The Consequence You Forgot To Name

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I was totally within my rights to do this, but I had to really think okay, did I help this person understand that if they did it one more time, then there would be a consequence? And the answer is a complete 100% no. Welcome to Madden's Therapist, building practices around. And here's your host, Dr. Kate Walker. Let's go to the Cariote Song is Bombardier. Dr. Ashley Stevens Durbin is back. And today we're talking about something most clinicians quietly avoid: the hard conversation. Whether it's a supervisee who's cutting corners, a colleague who's creating liability, or a site that is not acting ethically, clinical leaders don't wait until the situation's unmanageable. They address it early, clearly, and with care. Ashley is a licensed clinical social worker and supervisor, and she brings the kind of grounded practical honesty this topic deserves. If you've been putting off a conversation, this episode is for you. Now, let's get to work. Hey, I'm Dr. Kate Walker. Welcome to Badass Therapist Building Practices That Thrive. I'm with my colleague, Dr. Ashley Durbin, and we are going to take you through uh the title, which is Why Great Leaders Don't Avoid Tough Conversations. And if I'm talking to you supervisors, you know what I'm talking about. And if I'm talking to you, counselors, and you may have to, and you're social workers, you may have to channel uh maybe a time in your life when you had to have a tough conversation specifically with another grown-up. So that's our that's our framework, that's our premise for today. And the problem as we see it is we can develop these amazing courses. And if you haven't checked them out, Kate Walker Training provides uh supervisor training nationwide. And we develop some core courses. And in fact, we're gonna re-record some of those videos. And one of the trainings which we consider foundational is the relationship, right? The relationship between a supervisor and their supervisee is so important because if you don't maintain it, supervisor, your supervisee is going to stop being honest with you. They're going to just be very covert about things. They may not tell you if they feel like it's something that you're going to fuss at them about, or if it's just like the rest of us and they want to feel super competent. They don't like the idea of not meeting expectations, right? Who does? And if you have finished your master's degree, well, heck, if you have any kind of degree, even diploma, whatever, nobody likes to get a B. I mean, everybody wants to feel like they're very, very competent. But if I'm so supervisors, you and I know, we we all know that's not the name of this game. The name of this game is to help these brand new in-the-profession professionals progress developmentally so that they become our colleagues. So having tough conversations is just part of it. So, Ashley, anything you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

The thing that that strikes me the most is also like we are not coming onto you for doing things wrong or right. Like, it's like the we're speaking to the choir a little bit, that like this is also not like we all have room to improve, even people who've been doing this for a really long time. And just considering that, like when we talk about diversity, multiculturalism, etc., all of those things, like you don't really know where they're coming from or what they're going through. So opening and leading with kind of that curiosity of like, hmm, there's something going on here. How do I get to make it psychologically safe and comfortable for them to tell me what it is that's going on? And only then can we move forward. So, you know, it's also us doing the same thing with you, curious, you know, what are your situations that you've been through? Are we speaking to you and you're like, oh, I went through that last week, or I've been through that a month ago or whatever. Or maybe you're newer to supervision and this is, you know, something that's kind of brand new to you. And we're we're hopefully starting with a dose of prevention prevention rather than kind of behind the curve there. But yeah, same, same hot column the kettle black here. We're in it, growing, learning, just like we're asking you to do.

Why We Avoid Conflict

SPEAKER_00 4:56

I kind of hope maybe there's someone listening today who's like, oh my gosh, I have a tough conversation I need to have. Please tell me how to do this because that's why we're here. That's why we want to make sure you have these resources. So, why we avoid. I know personally, I'm a conflict avoider. Plain and simple. You'll never know I'm mad at you until you're like, huh, where'd Kate go? I haven't seen Kate in a while. I've been that's my jam. That's whatever childhood issues. I I just I cannot have not struggle with challenges to have tough conversations. And I've got a really good story about that. I'll talk to you about it in a minute. Because in my note here, it says we confuse confrontation with cruelty. We fear rupturing the relationship, there's an imposter system. Who am I to tell them they're doing it all wrong? And that may all be true, but honestly, I'm just like a scared little kid. I'm just like, oh, they're not gonna like me anymore. If I talk to them about this really hard thing, and I need everybody to like me. And I know this sounds really silly because I mean, this is what I make a living doing. I mean, I'm I've supervised tons of people. Ashley, you supervise ton of people. And I have had, I promise you, I've gotten over this, I've had my own therapy. But this is something that's always gonna be like a backflip for me. I'm always gonna have to think about it a little bit more than, you know, let's say just brushing my teeth. It's never going to be something that just comes naturally to me. I'm always going to have to think it through. And I have stopped being ashamed of it. I mean, I think back when I was a new supervisor, I was very, very ashamed. I had huge imposter syndrome. As I've mentioned before, I was a supervisor way too soon. Uh now, you know, you have to wait a little bit longer. But back in the day, I could just be a supervisor probably sooner than I should have been. And I really felt like I didn't know what I was talking about. So that was just like the perfect storm, where I would just kind of pray that it, you know, hopefully this just works itself out and blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. So that's where I'm coming from. And I think that's what I've heard a lot when people ask questions, whether it's in our Texas Supervisor Coalition Facebook page or Texas Counselors Creating Badass Businesses Facebook page, or even in our memberships when they message us, you know, I hear a lot of that same fear of confrontation.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah. And I think I don't think we're alone in this because I'm the same way of like, I will run so fast and far away from you, you won't even like, there will not even be dust. I'll like, it'll it'll be so silent and quiet that you will not even know. And it's funny because I was having this conversation with a good friend of mine who has like a nine-year-old, and they were talking about like a girl in in class was talking bad about her, and her daughter, she was talking about it, and she's like, What are you gonna do? And she's like, I'm gonna go to her tomorrow and I'm gonna say, I don't want to be your friend anymore. I don't like people who are mean to other people, and I may be annoying and weird, but I like me, so that's okay. And I was like, goals, I should be here how to grow up. And I was just like, seriously, I was like, that's so inspirational and a testament to like your parenting, but also like how like Lord gave me the confidence of a nine-year-old little girl who knows herself worse. I love it. And to me, I don't think because I waited a really long time to start supervising. I was in the field probably for 10, 12 years before I even started supervising. But so it wasn't like I never really struggled with that imposter in the supervision, but it still was that like my tendency is to run from this and to hope it just kind of works itself out. And I think like there's a few things of like, this is naturally who we are. We lead to this profession because we want to be helpful, we want to be kind, we want to change the world. We kind of want sunshine and roses. Um, and I think that that's like, we don't need to be ashamed of that. That's absolutely who our profession is. And knowing that assertiveness is not aggressiveness, that you, you know, and I say it all the time to my supervisees: more boundaries is good for everyone. Now, what a boundary is is not me overriding your wants, wishes, hopes, and desires. It's not steamrolling you to get what I need, but it is taking care of home base before I start putting that out into the world. And so this, I think, is that number one for me is I need to make sure that I'm solid, that I know how to have a hard conversation, that I know that this is worth having, that being a supervisor is such a sacred and needed profession that I have that responsibility, that due diligence to not only the supervisee and their future, but also the clients. And that that has to be my guiding light, the north on my compass.

Hard Conversation Versus Harmful One

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah. Yeah. And protecting gatekeeping is not something like you said, I mean, that's not why we went into this particular profession. In fact, we may have gravitated to being a counselor, social worker, marriage and family therapist, because we were in a career where we were the manager or we were the, you know, the heavy and had to make these tough decisions. And we're like, oh, this is this is so much better. I'm I'm just I'm a mediator, I'm a validator, I'm a guide, you know, and this is a lot different. So the next would be the difference between a hard conversation and a harmful one. And I wanted to grab this one. This one is really important to me because I I again I do hear this, you know, we have our monthly workshops uh where we have case consultation, you know, for a little bit of the time in that. And I'll never forget one of our supervisors came on and they were were talking about a supervisey situation. And it was, it was hard. It was, it was not an easy, simple, you know, resolution. And she said, you know, I just want them to finish. I, you know, they're so close to being finished. And I remember thinking, okay, that's that's the worst conversation you can have, the one that just doesn't exist, right? The one that's just not there. You know, it's not even hoping that it's all going to work itself out. It's just kicking the can, right? We're just wanting it to then become, I guess, the licensing board's issue. Or if this person makes an egregious mistake, maybe the client will file a complaint, right? We're wanting someone else to take it and run with it and and handle it for us. And I want to validate it. No shame, no judgment. I just want you to not do that. I don't want us to do that, or if you're doing that, or you're feeling yourself, if you're sitting here listening to this or watching this, and you have a situation right now where you're thinking, you know, Kate, it's just a it's just a hundred more hours that that they're with me. I can hang in there a hundred more hours, you know, I've made sure the client's safe, I've made sure whatever. I just let's let's just not rock the boat. So to me, that's one extreme. And then the other extreme is the one, and we see these in our course, uh, these folks in our courses all the time. They're the ones who are very egalitarian and uh very Regerian. You know, these are the very, you know, humanistic and we're all equal. And I love that for counseling. I kind of hate it for supervision just because we are in hierarchical relationships. Let's say I am a very kumbaya, we're all, we're all just here to exist, kind of a supervisor. Well, eventually they're gonna do the thing that gets us up to here. And we're going to do something, say something we wish we hadn't done or said. Right. So it's the opposite of the person who's just gonna hold out for the next hundred hours and hope it goes away and somebody else's problem. This is you, no shame, no judgment, because you're kind of sitting on a time bomb. You know you've got to do something, and this person, it it's like they're on a trajectory. Like you know, you're just watching and listening, and you know the next thing they do is gonna send you to the moon. Those to me are are harmful conversations that can happen.

Stages Of Supervision And The First No

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yeah. And I think it not having any conversation, like you said. I I have this saying of like the first no is the best no. And I think that there is, you know, I think we would be remiss to not talk about that. There are different stages of the supervisee supervisor relationship. You know, when this is brand new, I'm gonna be a lot more guideline, like there's gonna be a lot more structure, rules, guidelines, uh, maybe even advice that I'm giving them about their practice and what they're doing and whatever. In the middle, I'm gonna release that a little bit. And oh, what would you do? What do you think you should do? What have we talked about before? What have you learned? What have you read? What's your training set, etc.? And then at the end, yeah, I'm like growing them to be my new colleague in you know, five minutes a month, whatever that is. And so I think that there's like different stages of this, but I think that that crucial, like if they're a stage one supervisee and they're brand new, it's always better to start kind of more structured and strict than looser. Because as I learned in the fourth grade, when my teacher cried every single day in her classroom, she went in as a loosey goosey. We're all friends here, and never could like brain it back in versus the teachers that were like, mm-mm, your ass is grass, like this is my classroom. You better think you're lucky stars, you know, that you're in my presence. You can release that a little over time, but you nearly never can get it back once you've let it go loose. And so that's for me of like, if I need to say no, that is not okay, you should not be doing that. I need to do that the first time rather than the tenth time. And so, you know, making sure that this is something that the expectation and I think that our training does a particularly good job with these things because when we teach that having a supervision plan, having a contract, talking about evaluations and all of those things, you have that framework that you can move into, which we'll talk a little more about, but you can start the relationship off in that more structured place and then release it over time as it's appropriate, rather than getting yourself like you're six months in and you're going, oh no, I have no like authority here. And this person is doing things that I need that authority back.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Hey, quick heads up. This month's free bonus is something I built for every clinician who's ever wondered, am I thinking about supervision too early or not early enough? It's called the Clinical Leaders Roadmap, and it's a self-assessment and roadmap that shows you exactly where you are in your leadership development and what to build right now. Whether you're supervising today or planning for it down the road, this is the kind of clarity that makes every step after it easier. Grab it free at KateWalker Training.com slash bonus. Now, back to the episode. Can we just talk a minute about your teacher crying? Oh my gosh. That new thought, that mibery. That's like a memory. Yes.

Structure, Rules, And Giving Away Power

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Wow. I know her name. I don't remember anyone who I had like any year ever. Oh my gosh. She, I think she's not teaching anymore. There's no way. That's so sad. Yeah. It was her first year, and she said it also. When you have young kids in classroom, maybe don't tell them it's your first year. Maybe not. Maybe not. You know, and and I think that that is something we see in our Facebook groups a lot too, of like people will say, I'm a baby therapist. And some people like like it, but some people get really mad at it. Like, if you were in the therapy room, how much training, how much experience, how much life, how much education? And you know, there's all sorts of things. One of the things that I think is particularly um salient to me in this moment is this conversation about how much training like police officers have. And the answer is mostly about six months. Think about how many years uh you have in this process. And the minimum is like, you know, 12 years of education plus four years of bachelor's plus two years of master's plus two years of this supervision process. I mean, you've been doing this. So, you know, having that, like, I get the tendency to say, like, I'm a new supervisor or I'm a new therapist or I'm a new whatever. And like, maybe that's true. But also, are you giving some of that power away when you're thinking and believing, like, I'm brand new, I don't know anything.

unknown 18:22

Yeah.

The OER Triad For Accountability

SPEAKER_00 18:23

And our laws try to help us in our rules. You know, I'm thinking through, of course, I'm licensed in Texas. Um, Ashley, you're licensed in in many, many states. But I'm thinking, you know, Texas, they have a rule where you can't supervise someone who is a former friend or colleague, a friend who uh are up. You can't supervise someone you're related to. You must have a remediation plan if you suspect concerns. I mean, so what there's one more. So I think four rules designed to set boundaries for us. Because I think even the board or whoever the rules people are in different states, it's different things. I'm never sure. If it starts in a committee and then goes there, it starts in the public anyway, doesn't matter. In Texas, they at least have four boundaries for us, you know, and you know, don't have sex with your supervisees, so five. But that is a huge, leaves a huge loophole for us as trainers and also for you as supervisors to get this right, right? I mean, because if your only boundary is, okay, I'm just gonna make sure that I'm not supervising a friend. And I get it, small town folks, back before telehealth was not allowed, you probably did have to go up to a friend and say or a coworker, hey, will you supervise me? I get it, no judgment. But now anybody can do supervision anywhere with anybody, pretty much. So you can't afford to get out of your circle and supervise with someone or supervise someone who you don't know. So good, there's a boundary that you don't know them, you feel better about being their boss, their gatekeeper, whatever. So in our trainings, though, we talk about something called the OER triad. And so it takes into account that developmental model, right? Level one, level two, level three, level three is where they are your colleague in theory, right? That's where we're trying to get them, which is another reason supervision is so different from counseling. It's not just counseling on steroids, right? You are trying to get someone to something rather than the counselor, you're letting the letting the client lead as you should, right? So the OER triad, orientation, evaluation, remediation. Because when we see these hard conversations turn into rupturing conversations, it's a lot of times because really no formal evaluation has happened. No remediation has happened, and so the supervisee isn't used to it. Or, and we have a supervisor who is using this because they've had it up to here, and now they're gonna bring down the hammer with okay, fine, I'm gonna evaluate you. Okay, fine, I'm gonna give you a remediation plan. So it looks, sounds, acts like, and feels like a punishment. So what we talk about in our trainings with the OER triad is yes, you will start with your contract. The contract is the basis of everything. Then, because nobody really reads the contract, they just want your signature so they can keep moving. You do an extensive orientation. When I say extensive, it could take you two, three, four supervision sessions to go through an orientation. And it takes you, takes this person, your brand new supervisee, uh, through your contract. And it's a time of collaboration, it's a time you can introduce. them to your evaluation schedule. You can introduce them to an actual remediation plan, show them the template, show them the conditions under which they might receive one. Then stick to it. I mean, where have we heard this before, right? If you've worked with parents before, yeah, this is a fabulous plan. Now, parent, are you going to follow it? Same thing. If you have told them you're going to give them a formal evaluation every three months, then do that. Put it on your calendar, put it on their calendar. We have a great supervision planner. Grab it, put it in everybody's calendar so that they know every three months, every six months, every eight months, whatever, they will get a formal evaluation. And then be honest on it. If they're not meeting expectations, have a conversation. Show them, hey, this is where you're not meeting expectations. And if you fail to meet expectations, yes, I said the F word, if you fail to meet expectations again, as we talked about in the orientation, this is when we're going to have to implement a remediation plan. And you remember what that looks like here. Let's walk through it. Let's see what that might look like. What do you think you might want on an evaluation? I'm sorry, a remediation plan. So we're still remaining very, very collaborative. There's no antagonism yet. This is still a conversation, not an ultimatum. Lots of good things still happening here. But if you continue to use the evaluation and the remediation is just a CYA or in how ask me how I know, I'm going to give this remediation plan and that's just going to force them out the door. Then that'll be my problem solved. Yeah, that's a very cate thing to do. Then yeah, it's probably not going to have the learning implications that that you thought it would. And yeah, it may rupture the relationship and guess who's responsible for that relationship supervisor? It is you. 100% yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah. And not to bring it down, but like to just think about like the legal, ethical, moral place for a second too. You know, as an industrial organizational psychologist, one of the aspects is that I think most companies get in really big trouble with is what's good for the goose, right? When you are having a problem with someone and you start changing the way you do things then when you're up to here, a lot of times that can introduce you to legal problems because you haven't instituted policies that everyone follows. You're only instituting policies now that someone is kind of walking down the troubled path or you're absolutely just trying to get them gone and prove it. And I think that that's one of the things you know when we talk about things like complex, which we'll get into, but that kind of like if you don't have a standardized process for how you do a thing, you will then have to shift how you do it when someone is having a problem. And that I think goes back to not only that harmful like that you're already your emotions are involved because this is your business, this is your practice, this is your license, this is your liability and that feels bad. So you're already feeling some kind of way. And that's what policies and procedures are there to alleviate. There's no emotions we don't write them when we're mad. We don't write them when we're frustrated. We write them when we're having a good time so that when we're mad, when we're frustrated, we know exactly step A, B, C, and D to do. And when you start treating, you know, I say this to supervisees when I'm talking about clients, but it's the same with supervisees. Do you have a special client supervisee that you're treating differently good or bad? That's a problem and you can get in trouble for those things. So like you know on your sunny days make sure to protect the days where it's raining. I like that.

A Supervisee Complaint And The Lesson

SPEAKER_00 26:03

And again ask ask me how I know. And one of the reasons that I revamped this course back in 2019. I'm I mean I I've taught it since 2006 I think uh in all different ways but I remember and I know I've told this story before at the end of the training we would have scared more people off than we were actually getting to supervise. So that's not good. But the second pivotal thing that really helped me just rethink how to train supervisors was getting a complaint. Like I I got a complaint against me by a supervisee that I had fired. And so I was totally within my rights to do this. This person worked in my practice and I was terminating the employment as well as the supervision which is a whole different issue. We'll talk about that. But owning my part in this I had to really think okay did I help this person understand that if they did it one more time then there would be a consequence and the answer is a complete 100% no. I mean I was a I was a okay one more time okay if you do this one more time and then I got in my head about well it wasn't exactly the same thing that they did last time. So maybe it's on me. I had I didn't explain it well enough. I should make sure to be able to read the future to know what this guy person whatever is going to do next right I mean I was trying to be magical and then taking responsibility for something that was so getting out of hand and getting more and more and more out of my control. So by the time I had it up to here and I said you're out I had to go back and put together a paper trail of emails and just supervision notes. And I mean I remember sending the packet off after I got the complaint and just being like trying to be so thorough and then thinking oh my gosh if I had just followed my own freaking rule of following my contract following my evaluation schedule following the remediation plan schedule like could I have avoided the complaint? I mean I don't know I kind of feel like it's a code of Teflon. I feel like if the complaint had happened at least it would have been like resolved super fast. And good news it was but it really made me rethink the systems that need to be taught along with just here's how to be a supervisor. Here's your 40 hour or 15 hour or seven hour training on how to be a supervisor. It's like anybody can do that. Type it into Claude but if you don't have the systems to keep you safe and to keep that relationship safe you know okay and it may not feel good all the time.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yes. And and I do I have not had that situation happen but I professionally supervisees is a whole other story but professionally I've known exactly two people that I worked with who have gotten complaints. One of them was from a client and one of them was from a supervisee who is mad about a bad evaluation. And so like this is not the the like scare tactic, scared straight portion of the of the training but like these are also people who can make a complaint against your license for a myriad of reasons. So protecting yourself is the name of the game. And we I think really emphasize that we want to make sure that you're not doing this scared that this is something that you're like have like this creepy crawly in the back of your mic. We talk about all of these things to get you in a place where you're solid and you're good and you know exactly which way to move forward because of our past mistakes. And we've made plenty that hopefully we can help you avoid um you know just ask us on a day take us out for a beer and we can tell you any number of horror stories. But um that is something that I think people don't realize is that you know they're always attuned to this like it's a client who makes the the you know the complaint or says something it can be anyone you are a member of the public who is publicly licensed in your state anyone can make any any sort of saying about you in in the court of public opinion. So um take our mistakes and grow from them please yeah I mean we we will say we'll be the first ones to tell you we can't stop a complaint.

Practical Reset Steps And Resources

Checklist, CE Option, And Reviews

SPEAKER_00 30:57

And if someone tells you they can do not buy property what oceanfront property from them in Arizona right you are just getting a nice slick coat of Teflon by listening to this today. So I mean let's let's recap a little bit I mean if you're in it if you're in the thick of it and you know you need to have a tough conversation with someone and maybe you have not maybe you've never had a contract maybe you never sat down with them to do an orientation maybe you've never evaluated them. Well own that start that start with lead with that with this conversation say you know what I realize I haven't done X, Y, and Z. I just need to bring this to your attention and I'm so concerned about it that I'm willing to piss you off by having this conversation and I really want your feedback I want to collaborate with you on a solution. If you're at the beginning of it and you're like oh thank goodness I I'm listening to this podcast I think I'm so glad right so go and and get a contract make sure some states don't require one some states do some states call the paperwork you turn into the state that says you're a supervisor with this person they call that the contract that's not the contract the contract is a piece of paper where you describe the what, the where the how the when get that then get your orientation then have an evaluation schedule you can Google evaluation of supervisees and have an amazing instrument pop up then remediation plan. Again Google it I've got a book it's right right back there I'm pointing at if you're listening to it called the Clinical Supervision survival guide. Everything we're talking about in here in in a QR code in that book just get the resources somehow and reach out to us. I mean we're happy to answer your questions this is a real passion project for us because Ashley and I aren't in the business of just teaching you how to supervise. We want you to continue supervising. We want to make sure you continue to grow your your level one baby supervisors into your colleagues and let's let's get rid of these gaps in access to care all across America. And we're pretty aspirational. We're pretty ambitious with that but you know what we're doing it sure are all right I that's it for me I will see you guys or we will see you guys next time around thanks for listening. If this got you thinking about supervision grab the free supervision onboarding checklist at Katewalkertraining.com slash checklist it walks you through exactly what you need in place before your first supervisee ever signs a contract. And if you're thinking I wish I could get a CE for this step it up members can. Check it out at Katewalkertraining dot com slash step it up if you love today's episode be sure to leave a five star review. It helps other badass therapists find the show and build practices that thrive. Big thanks to Ridgley Walker for our original fun facts and podcast intro and to Carl Dianella for editing this episode and making us sound amazing. See you next week