Badass Therapists Building Practices That Thrive

158 Supervision, Employment, And The Messy Middle In Counseling

• Dr. Kate Walker Ph.D., LPC/LMFT Supervisor • Season 3 • Episode 158

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Power and pay should never silence honest supervision, yet that’s exactly what happens when your supervisor is also your boss. We take you inside the messy overlap of employment and clinical supervision and lay out a simple blueprint to protect ethics, growth, and income without burning bridges.

We start by drawing a bright line between two documents most people blur: the clinical supervision contract and the policies and procedures manual. One governs evaluation, documentation, and remediation; the other covers schedules, dress codes, write-ups, and progressive discipline. Then we tackle the landmines—mid-contract rate hikes, clawbacks passed to associates, and the myth that hours can be held hostage. You’ll hear how to set stable payment terms, define “timely” access to supervision records, and create remediation plans that build competence instead of fear.

We also unpack the W-2 vs 1099 decision with a clear control lens: if you set schedules, restrict methods, and review records, you likely have an employee, not a contractor. That choice impacts taxes, benefits, records custody, subpoenas, and HIPAA responsibilities. To make dual roles workable, we share practical systems: split meetings into admin then clinical, start the supervision clock only when clinical begins, label agendas by role, and document goals and feedback every session. The mindset shift matters most—coach toward a future colleague rather than punish from a hierarchy.

Whether you’re a small-town agency owner wearing two hats or an associate vetting your first role, you’ll leave with concrete steps to protect your license path and your paycheck: what to ask for in contracts, how to assess classification, where to set boundaries, and when to walk away. If the goal is a thriving practice and a strong professional reputation, clarity beats charisma every time.

If this was helpful, follow the show, share it with a colleague who needs cleaner supervision systems, and leave a quick review so more therapists can find it. Grab the free “10 Delegation Quick Wins for Counselors” at KateWalkerTraining.com/bonus and tell us: what boundary will you set this week?

Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit.

SPEAKER_01:

Supervisors, the best way to stay out of trouble if you know you're going to be in a dual relationship. And I'm talking to you, small town agency owner. I get that. You're in a small town, you've got to wear two hats. I've been there. A lot of supervisors have been there. I want you to listen to my words.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Badest Therapists, building practices of life. It's all about working smarter, not harder. And here's your host, Dr. Kate Walker.

SPEAKER_01:

You want to hear something scary? If you run a group practice and also supervise your associates, you're wearing two hats, boss and clinical supervisor. And let's be honest, that can get messy and scary fast. Today, Jennifer and I talk about the systems that make this dual role clearer, safer, and less stressful for everyone involved. And don't miss the mid-roll for my freebie, 10 delegation quick wins for counselors at KateWalkerTraining.com slash bonus. Now, let's get to work. Hey, I'm Dr. Kate Walker with Kate Walker Training, and this is Jennifer Murray Fairchild. And if you don't know us, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. We're continuing our conversation about bad supervision. And bad supervision can come from a lot of places. So today we're going to drill down on this idea of how dual roles can get you in trouble. So if you're listening to this in Texas, what you need to know here is we're talking about LPC supervision because dual roles are permitted. They just must be managed. If you're an LMFT in Texas, as of this recording, dual roles are not permitted. In social work, I believe dual roles, that's so hard to say, are also not permitted. So you may be thinking, well, why am I even listening to this? What does it mean? Hey, if you're working for your supervisor, your supervisor is in a dual role. They are your boss and they are your clinical supervisor. So you know what this means from counseling, where it, right? It's prohibited in every mental health arena I'm aware of in every state that I'm aware of. You cannot have a dual role with your client because it's unethical. It's not right, right? Picture, you know, you're going to counsel someone and then in an hour they're going to fix your car, right? You can't have that dual relationship and continue to be very therapeutic, right? Maybe you wouldn't challenge them in the way they need to be challenged in counseling because you're afraid they won't fix your car well or something like that. So dual relationships muddy the waters. So this podcast isn't going to advocate for or against dual relationships and supervision, but as you can tell from the title, we are going to drill down on what gets you in trouble. And we've seen a lot of stuff on the internet about problems that for me personally can be traced back to the dual role. And Jennifer, you're going to talk about some things that we see in the 40-hour training when folks are designing their contract and their supervision plan. Uh, because that starts the conversation. If you plan on hiring your supervisee, you've got to lay the grounds, just like if you were going to go work anywhere, you need to have a good job description and a good contract. So, first things first, we talk about having a good clinical contract. And if you're going to be a business owner, have a policy and procedures manual. Two very, very different things. And so, Jennifer, talk about where we have to correct people if they're trying to put both things into the clinical supervision contract.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, a good rule of thumb is if it is something that I could write you up for at a normal job, then that's probably something that needs to go into policies and procedures. So you'll find things like, I expect my associates to come to supervision dressed in business, casual. Well, that's an administrative thing. And while some people have preferences, clinical supervision doesn't enter the arena of, you know, regulating what somebody's wearing. They'll say things like, you know, if two supervision sessions are, if you're late, then I'm going to write you up. Things that that are that are going to draw you in a punitive nature, that's kind of where if I if I need to reprimand your work behaviors, that's going to go into policies and procedures. If I'm dealing with your clinical behaviors, that stuff needs to go into a contract. You know, what is your late no-show cancellation policy? That's a great thing to have in there because I need to know and you need to know what's going to happen if you're late. And we have a plan to mitigate that. So those are kind of some of the bigger ones I see. I love when they say, you know, you have to wear business casual supervision.

SPEAKER_01:

Or else what? Yeah. I mean, and one of the things, if you look at a very well-researched, very valid, reliable instrument called the CCSR that Dr. Gary Lamby developed, you will see there are criteria on that instrument that relate to, I will just call it like agency behavior, you know, being able to get along in a setting, in a work setting, right? We're our background, at least in Texas, clinical mental health, you know, our roots are in agencies. And how you behave in your break room, associates and supervisors, can reflect how you act with your clients or in supervision. So, you know, being able as a supervisor to say, hey, you've been late to work, is that a clinical issue or is that an administrative issue, right? They're dual roles. It can become a clinical issue for sure. In fact, we have a module on that in our online 40-hour training to become a supervisor. We talk about someone who's chronically late for supervision or, like Jennifer mentioned, they no show without an explanation, or, you know, that needs to be addressed because it's really classic level two behavior when they're kind of over it. They're kind of, okay, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. So as a boss, if they're chronically late, would you write them up? Would you give them a verbal warning? Would you say, okay, three strikes and you're out? Because here's the problem Supervision is like, I don't want to call it a marriage because you are supposed to break up after the hours are concluded, right? But the idea is to stay together and here's the word, remediate. We're looking to remediate behaviors so that this person develops into your colleague. At work, it's more like, okay, strike one, strike two, strike three, go find another job. And the problems that we see, well, this is just one. You know what? When you fire them from the job in Texas, you're still the supervisor, right? So it's it's a completely different mechanism that I don't even want to get into here on how to terminate supervision if you are the supervisor. So this idea of having a policy and procedures manual to outline, we call it a progressive discipline. Well, we don't call it that. Everybody calls it that. A progressive discipline plan, right? I have verbal warning, written write-up, whatever, you're fired. Well, your clinical contract is going to talk about how we're going to evaluate you, then we're going to remediate, and then what comes next so that I can grow you into my calling. So, Jennifer, am I hitting it? Anything you would add to that?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, no, you you covered it great. And the especially like the late no-show stuff, I think it can be difficult to separate that one particularly because being punctual and on time and showing up to meetings is a very much ingrained in our society. So your natural tendency is to lean towards, I'm going to punish that. And you can't.

SPEAKER_01:

And I said, Well, she should have asked or talked to her supervisor, right? So the conversation is key here. Now, associates, I want to empower you right now. You know, we just did an episode on toxic supervision behaviors. And we did an episode on how to and when to speak up to your supervisor. Advocating for yourself is crucial here. And so I hope you're listening to this. And if you're thinking, oh my gosh, this sounds like my supervision situation, have the conversation. I want to empower you to do that. I totally get it. If it's intimidating, if it's scary to do so, you know, and supervisors, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, I need to change a couple of things, yeah, you better change a couple of things because what's happening, and I'm not gonna read the verbiage directly, but there are associates who feel that supervisors are being predatory. So for example, you know, you mess with somebody's money, there's gonna be a problem. So if you have put into a contract, hey, supervision, I will charge you this, or it will come out of your paycheck like that, and on and on we go. And then all of a sudden, supervisee shows up and you're like, hey, I'm raising my rates. If you want to continue with me, pony up, right? Or you don't know how to reinforce no, no, or or a clawback, you know, uh, with LPC associates, they're not able to get paneled as of this recording, but you know, their services can be reimbursed by insurance. So if there's a clawback, what if the supervisor's gonna say, hey, you're not gonna get paid for the next couple of weeks because we had a clawback, you're messing with somebody's money, and then you're gonna go back and tell your supervisee, hey, be open with me. How's it going? I promise. I mean, gosh, that reminds me of my when my parents like asked me if you've used weed before when I was 14.

SPEAKER_02:

They're like, be honest with us. Well, you you did, you made one really good point, and I forgot to address it a while ago. Supervisors forget that this is a temporary relationship, and the goal is to make this individual your colleague. And if you treated me like crap when I was an associate, to all of a sudden now I'm an LPC and I'm fully licensed and now I'm worthy and you're gonna be nice. I don't find that I'm probably gonna have a lot of respect for you. And I'm gonna always remember, yeah, that's that supervisor that was awful to me. So you prevent the ability to build and network and connect and have great colleagues when you supervise from this hierarchy, punitive, I'm gonna punish you vantage. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

More and more counselors are walking away from group practices and even platforms like Headway because the systems just don't work. If you're ready to build your own support, my free guide, 10 Delegation Quick Wins for Counselors, shows you exactly what tasks you can hand off this week to save time and stay HIPAA compliant. Grab it now at KateWalkertraining.com slash bonus. So, okay, what have we learned so far? Associates, there are situations, at least in Texas, as of this recording, where you can work for your supervisor. Okay, totally legal, totally okay. But Jennifer and I want to give you things to be aware of and to look out for. And supervisors, while you're listening to this, I want you to be taking notes, hit pause, go back and listen to it again. So, number one, have a contract. Supervisees, look at that contract, read that contract. And if you are also going to work for your supervisor, say, hey, where's the policy and procedures manual? Right. And some things to look for in a policy and procedures manual are who's the records custodian? What happens if there's a clawback? What happens if I don't tuck my shirt in? Right? All of the things related to your money, your time, things that can get written up. And then ask your supervisor, explain remediation to me. How do I know if I'm not mastering a skill and you're gonna remediate me? And will this affect my job? The answer should be no, it shouldn't affect your job unless you do something extremely terrible, like have sex with your client or do all the things. But Jennifer, what would you add to that?

SPEAKER_02:

The one thing that I see more often than not is the I call it the hour, like holding your hours hostage. Because a lot of supervisors think if me, the supervisor, has any sort of concern about your clinical abilities, I may not sign off on your hours. But what supervisors forget is if I attended supervision and I saw clients, then that supervisor is still liable for all of those hours. And the big question is, is well, you didn't sign off on them, but you were liable. And then you enter the whole realm of, well, not all supervisors are created equally. And what if the supervisor decides they don't like me and they just refuse to sign off on my hours? Again, now you're messing with my money and my ability to get fully licensed. And it just, it's just never a good look. It's never a good look to say that I could refuse. That just screams, I'm large and in charge.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you I mean, you can't even withhold someone's paycheck because you didn't like the way they they stock the shelves, right? I mean, you don't mess with people's money ever. I just good rule of thumb. I want to talk about a little bit, a tiny bit, 1099 versus W-2. Now, if you want more information on this, we've done podcast episodes, we've had experts come in and talk in other webinars, we've had attorneys come in. And if you're going to respond to this episode, well, how do I do it? And is this person the W-2? Our answer is always going to be it depends. Go call your lawyer. Here's the thing talking to associates. If you be hired by your supervisor, look at your classification very, very carefully. Right? 1099 may seem like, oh, that's I'm free. That's so wonderful. I'm 1099. I can do what I want. But yeah, Jennifer's already shaking her head. I mean, the problems with this are, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_02:

We get this so much, so much. And it's very difficult to take a definitive stance on it, right? Because you are going to find people on both sides that will give you plenty of evidence to support whichever they want. So I kind of always tell people, you know, go to the IRS checklist and answer those questions. That's going to tell you real quick. Number two, I have taken contracts for 1099 contractors and dump them into Chat GPT and said, is this contract a good contract for 1099? And Chat GPT will rattle all kinds of things out. So, I mean, if you don't know, that's a good starting place. But I always just ask this question, you know, counselors, you you make a statement, I'm just gonna ask you a question. How can an associate essentially really work as a 1099 contractor when there has to be oversight? If somebody has to sign off on your records, if somebody it has to review your records, if you have to authorize for somebody to be able to look at your records, how are you a contractor? Because a contractor works independently and I could have my dog write my notes if I wanted to. Give her a pen and trainer, and because a contractor can hire anybody to do anything. And if I can't hire the workout, that's always kind of my biggest one. If I if I cannot hire that workout, then I probably gonna steer clear of that one. But you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, if you're working for your supervisor, they are controlling your work. So the idea that your supervisor would want to hire you as a 1099 contract, again, we're not attorneys. Take that to Chat GPT, take that contract. It will start with chat and just say, is this a 1099 contract? I mean, without, you know, the W-2 classification, nobody's taken out for your benefits, nobody's looking out for you with Social Security, all of the things with 1099, you have to take out your own tax money, all of the all, then that leaves the big question: who is the records custodian? Because in Texas, as of this recording, if you are an LPC associate, you can be the custodian of your own records. So when that subpoena comes to your supervisor's practice for those records, who gets the subpoena? Are you on the hook? Is you practice on the hook? And and we've talked about that before too. So again, just please take a look at your contract. And I hope there aren't people out there going, wait, I never got a contract. Oh my goodness. Stop, hit pause, go talk to your supervisor who's hired you and say, Where is my employment contract? Okay. Employment contract, clinical contract, all of these things, and they don't have to be set in stone, but they have to be clear so that associates, you can agree. That's one of the things I was looking at this morning. You know, a big complaint here in Texas, not a formal complaint necessarily, but our associates who feel like the finances, what they're being charged for supervision is too high or it changes. Well, associates, that starts with that contract. And if you are interviewing with a supervisor who doesn't have a contract or who doesn't have in writing what their fees are and all the late cancel no-show things, Jennifer was talking about it. Run, you know, hang up the phone, stop the Zoom call, walk out of the office, whatever you're doing, stop and get another supervisor. There are no limits to technology. You can be anywhere and have a supervisor anywhere. If I'm talking about Texas now, other states, it may be different. So please, I'm gonna tell you how to feel. Please don't feel like you have to keep somebody just because you have walked through the door and you shook their hand, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You don't owe them and they don't owe you. Like the relationship has to be of a benefit. And yeah, absolutely. If you go in and they don't have their documentation in place, you just say thank you so much for your time and you keep looking.

SPEAKER_01:

So, how to stay out of trouble. Supervisors again, keep listening. So I want you associates to look for a clear role division. That means a contract and a policy and procedures manual. I want you to have clearly identified how much you make, how much supervision is going to cost, how those records are going to be kept. I want clear communication about records, how you can get your records. Another issue with supervision is in Texas the way it's written. If a supervisee asks for supervision records, supervisor has to give it in a timely manner. Nobody knows what timely is. So ask your supervisor to define that. If I need my records, how can I get them? I know when I was supervising associates, I made them take the original of everything. And I'm the one that kept the electronic copy. Every time we left supervision, everybody had a copy of their records. And then when we went to virtual, I didn't do it very long virtually, but it was the same thing. Everybody had a copy of their records. What am I missing, Jennifer?

SPEAKER_02:

I think you covered. I mean, because we just talked about 1099 W 2. The one thing when you talk about records and in the contracts, a lot of people will say, you know, head of HR, or especially I see this with a lot of school counselors who are also fully licensed and they're providing both roles in a school district, they will make somebody within the school district their records custodian. And that's fine. I discourage it because your associate is on a timeline and God forbid something happened to you and they're close to the end of their five years. Well, somebody in an administrative or HR role or somewhere, you know, way up high in another building on the other side of town doesn't understand the urgency. So you you never want to assign a records custodian that could potentially hold up your associate getting their records that they have to have in order to get full licensure. So you want to pick somebody that's going to be pretty quick and efficient about it because we always think, oh, you know, HR director. Well, the HR director's got a million other things going on, and that's probably not the top of their list. And you never want your associate in a bad spot.

SPEAKER_01:

Good point. Long and short supervisors, the best way to stay out of trouble if you know you're going to be in a dual relationship. And I'm talking to you, small town agency owner. I get that. You're in a small town, you've got to wear two hats. I've been there. A lot of supervisors have been there. If you can hire someone to manage your employees, do that. I mean, if it's anywhere in your budget, just have another person and stay out of that chain of command. If it's not possible, then I want you to listen to my words. You look at your supervisees and you say, okay, for 10 minutes, we're going to talk about administrative issues. Ready, set, go. Okay, we're talking about keys, we're talking about tucking in shirts, we're talking about parking spots, we're talking about the coffee in the break room. Somebody tries to ask about a client, you say, no, no, no. Administrative. And then when time, 10 minutes, okay, now we're doing clinical work. And the clock starts for supervision when you start the clinical work. So, I mean, you should be getting all kinds of creative juices flowing right now, right? You can have a weekly staff meeting that is administrative and completely out of the realm of clinical. So I'm trying to help you with this idea, not just work on paper, but also how to make sure you're representing yourself to your supervisees, either as their boss or as their clinical supervisor. And it's a work in progress, right? And I hope that we get lots of comments on this episode. It's tricky. If you're in the Facebook group, Texas Supervisor Coalition, I'd love to hear you guys talk about this. It is, it just evolves. And as long as there are dual relationships, we'll have some difficulties. So start with the contract, start with the policy and procedures. Associates, take that stuff and run it through Chat GPT. And if there's nothing, if there's no contract and no policy and procedures associate, just hang up the phone. Just go look someplace else. All right, that's it. If you needed more information about how to talk, how to speak up, what are toxic supervision behaviors, check out our other episodes and we will see you later. Bye. Thanks for listening to Badass Therapists Building Practices That Thrive. If you're frustrated with low pay, confusing policies, or lack of support in your group practice, you're not alone. And you don't have to do this by yourself. Don't forget to grab today's free resource at KateWalker Training.com/slash bonus. And if you're ready for the coaching, CEs, and templates that actually make private practice sustainable, join us inside the Step It Up membership. Until next time, keep building a practice and a career that lets you thrive on your own terms. If you love today's episode, be sure to leave a five-star review. It helps other badass therapists find the show and build practices that thrive. Big thanks to Ridgely Walker for our original fun facts and podcast intro, and to Carl Guyanella for editing this episode and making us sound amazing. See you next week.