141 Behind the Clock Face: When Therapists Need Their Own Therapy

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Transcript

Therapists Needing Therapy

Speaker 1 0:03

therapists needing therapy is , I mean , I think back in the day , if you worked with freud like you were automatically in therapy , right ? And I think psychodynamic , which is freud's theory , and young , uh , which is psychoanalysis , right I ? I think you have to be in therapy if you're learning those theories , but not many people learn those techniques anymore , right ? I mean , what would you say ? The theory was that you learned in grad school .

Speaker 2 0:39

I mean we touched on the major ones um , freud , young , uh , gestalt person centered , narrative , existential , but it it was . It was just enough to get like a frame of reference for what the theorist was . But we didn't spend like a whole lot of time really diving into the techniques or , you know , doing any sort of role play with any specific one .

Speaker 1 1:10

It's hard , I know as a when I'm an instructor , you know . I think what we try to help students learn is , you know , person-centered , how to reflect , how to not ask questions , how to make sure that they're giving a good content back . So it's not a lot , I mean okay . So , clients , if you're listening to this what's going on , you'll see your therapist face and they may be nodding and and reflecting . Okay , it sounds like you're sad . It sounds like you're so sad and you're wondering if you'll ever be happy again . But in their mind they're thinking about what they're going to say to influence you , right ? We're looking for ways to influence you toward your goal , right ? So when you came to counseling , you said you know what I need to find a better job . Help me find a better job , help me . Or , you know what I'm anxious all the time . Help me be less anxious . So we've got your goal in mind .

Speaker 1 2:17

But as we're listening to you , I call it behind the clock face , you know . So , those of you who don't know what an analog clock is it's round and it has numbers on it . We hang it on the wall . So if you imagine the clock face , what you see are numbers . What

Behind the Clock Face

Speaker 1 2:30

you don't see is the mechanism behind the clock face moving all the numbers right . So there we are , we're thinking about these things and we're thinking about what we're going to say next . And so for you musicians out there , it's like you know your right and your left hand are doing different things . You know piano player , you've got a left hand doing bass , you've got a right hand doing the melody , so it's doable . It's not like we're doing . You know we're not breaking the atom here or you know , sending a rocket into space . We are listening to you , but we are formulating a response through our theory and dot , dot , dot , our own shit . And this is where it gets really weird , because if a therapist hasn't worked through their own shit , you may get some weird responses .

Speaker 1 3:31

And that's what therapy is for . I mean , you know we've talked about needing therapy because we're burned out , right ? And Jennifer , you know you talked about like , just because there are 12 hours in a day doesn't mean you have to have clients back to back every single hour . I mean , getting burned out isn't good for anybody . And going to therapy for that is wonderful . And therapists who are doing that good on you . I'm so proud of you . You go to therapy , you're dealing with the vicarious trauma and things like that .

Speaker 1 4:02

But we all have stuff , and that's why clients come to therapy . Right , because the family blew up over the turkey at Thanksgiving because somebody was supposed to bring cranberries , and they brought cranberry juice or something , right ? I mean , everybody has stuff , but that's our filter

When Personal Triggers Enter Therapy

Speaker 1 4:23

. I mean , just like you have a filter for your coffee and that's what the water brews through and it turns into coffee on the other side of that filter , doesn't it ? So how , how can we be helpful if our filter is turning what we're going to say into something very harmful ? You know what I mean ?

Speaker 2 4:45

I'll never forget the first . I had a very , very , very , very , very , very , very , very bad experience with a family member .

Speaker 2 4:57

Um , it was . It was not good , and I will never forget the first time I had a client that reminded me of that family member , and it was . I mean , it was like you could have poured cold water on me and I'm sitting here like trying to because it's not this client's fault . This client is here , they need help , and it's not fair for me to be interpreting everything they say through this lens of the experience that I had with this particular family member , and so that's one thing I processed through therapy , like I need to go to therapy so I can deal with what happened in this interaction over here , so that it has no impact on how I work with this client . And I don't . I don't think therapists understand that till the first time it happens .

Speaker 1 5:52

Yeah , I think you're right . And did you ever have a professor tell you like so most of us will put students through a values clarification , like we want to know what your triggers are basically , and we'll have you fill out stuff like you know what do you ? How do you feel about abortion or suicide or someone who doesn't have sex like me ? Right ? So so that you can do that introspection and we don't do anything with that in class because we're not your therapist , but one of the things and that's my question for you , did you ever have a therapist say the person who triggers you the most is going to be the person who shows up in therapy .

Speaker 2 6:37

No , but that's so true .

Speaker 1 6:39

I tell my students that I mean , if you're having an issue with your creepy Uncle Fred and you know this is I'm not kidding whether it's a couple , or even you know someone who is not male like Uncle Fred , when they come through the door , if they talk like them , if the cadence of their voice is like them , if they lean forward like them and point their finger at you like them I mean something about their mannerism can trigger , like that filter snaps into place and you're like right . And it takes a lot of training to be able to stop and say , ooh , is the thing that's about to come out of my mouth helpful or is it my own ?

Speaker 2 7:25

shit . Am I talking to Uncle Fred or am I talking to my client ? Because they are two different people and just because they remind me of each other does not mean they are each other . Yeah , I'll never forget . I had a professor tell me that there was a particular population that they wouldn't work with , and it was a very general but also a very specific population , because that population triggered that professor . And I remember thinking as a student , you can't turn away every 35-year-old person that walks through your door named Susie . But that was the first time I realized that we , we

Maintaining Ethical Boundaries

Speaker 2 8:08

like we should work through this , but , but a lot of people don't .

Speaker 1 8:13

Well , that's one of the things you know . Maybe you know , going back to things you wish you had known earlier in your career is that exact statement right ? If I'm triggered by someone but I've already agreed to help them and we've built rapport and they're sitting in front of me . They don't know that I'm triggered . They don't know . This is my issue . As an ethical therapist , it's my obligation to work through my shit so I can continue to be helpful to them .

Speaker 1 8:46

If I stop the session or wait till the session's over and go , oh , you know what I just realized , I can't work with you because , oh , it's , don't worry , it's not you , it's me and it's fine , and I hear three referrals there . We're good , right , have a nice day . Oh , I mean , that's that's awful and we are professionals . That's why you know , that's why we hold a license , and so you know , if you're out there shopping for therapists , please check and make sure they have a license . Please make sure that they hold a state piece of paper that says that they are able to do therapy with you . Because this is one of the things I I know . We are trained to go deal with our shit on a regular basis and to be aware when our shit is clouding what's happening in the therapy room , and that's part of what supervision is for , too right .

Speaker 2 9:54

Yeah , well , and it's easy . We have so many interactions and so many relationships that it's easy to find in any client something that reminds you of something , whether it's yourself as a kid , or as somebody you knew , or somebody you dated , or somebody in your family , like it's . It's very , it's very easy because that's what our minds want to do . The human mind wants to draw connection . We draw connections through patterns .

Speaker 2 10:21

Patterns show up in repetition and , and that's why , you know , we might meet somebody and go , oh , you remind me of my friend , and we instantly bond with that person . And it's not because we know them , it's not because we really truly bonded , but there's something in them that reminds us of that familiarity . I can't talk with somebody else , and so , as a whole , we have to learn how to shut that off and treat every client that comes to the door as an individual , with their own unique problems and their own unique personality , so that we don't , you know , like one client more than we like another client , because this client reminds us of this friend that we had back in high school that we love dearly . It's so that we can keep that ethical . You know , we treat everybody the same , with that same justness and fairness , so that we don't it just as easily , as we don't like them . You know , we connect too much .

Speaker 1 11:22

Yeah , and speaking of that , that's still the number one reason that therapists and mental health professionals get complaints filed against them because we have sex with our clients

Counter-Transference and Professional Challenges

Speaker 1 11:32

, get complaints filed against them because we have sex with our clients . And so the word for this everybody who's not in the business is called counter-transference . Counter-transference it means I am interpreting an incorrect message . It's my stuff , not the client's . I'm supposed to be a receptacle for the client . I'm supposed to be listening , reflecting , influencing , listening , reflecting , influencing for the client's wellbeing . And the minute I start thinking , huh , they're kind of cute . Yeah , you know what ? I think we could . We could probably be a thing . Uh , you know , and my texts happen to get a little longer and more explicit , and I mean , I laugh , but it happens .

Speaker 1 12:28

I know , I know . And the idea that we , as counselors , would look at therapy as only for people with problems , I mean , oh my gosh , how hypocritical is that ? Right ? I mean , for us it's just maintenance . And counselors , therapists , mental health professionals if you're listening to us , it's not saying that . Okay , if you find yourself attracted to a client , you're doing something wrong . No , attraction is normal . Anybody can be attracted to anyone . It's acting on that attraction , and are you professional enough to be able to stop and go ? Whoa , I need help immediately . I need to call my therapist . Or , if you're still provisionally licensed , I need to call my supervisor . And if you're afraid of your supervisor , call a supervisor you're not afraid of . And , by the way , fire the one you're afraid of , because this is normal .

Speaker 1 13:30

Counter-transference isn't something we cure in a therapist . It's not something that we ever get to the bottom of and it's done and oh right , we're , we're , we're all better . It's just who we are and we're human beings and therapy helps us get to the bottom of it . So we don't make that mistake of acting on something that is not in the client's best interest , right , I mean ? Or something that's harmful for us . You know , I mean , I remember you know you were talking about that . I remember when my dad came into the therapy room and this guy he did not look like my dad . He did not have the same accent that my dad has or had . He did . I mean nothing about . This guy looked like my dad until he leaned forward and pointed his finger at me and raised his voice which , by the way , clients , you're allowed to do that . You're allowed to do all of that , right , Therapists , we're trained to take that . It's part of the . It's part of the healthy session . You're to do all of that , right , therapists , we're trained to take that . It's part of the healthy session . You're totally okay doing that .

Speaker 1 14:36

I started crying in session . I busted out crying . I was so embarrassed and I was just like , oh my gosh , what have I done ? You know I ended the session . I called them later , I apologized , they apologized to me and I , as a professional , I could not recover that relationship . I ended up giving them referrals , but I did . I had to take it to my own therapist and say what the hell I mean I've been a counselor for 15 years , by that point and it's like what the hell just happened . I thought I was . I thought I was better than that , you know , and they just laughed . Oh silly counselor .

Speaker 2 15:19

That's so cute . Oh , bless your heart .

Speaker 1 15:43

Yes , she blessed my heart . I did that's funny an oath , just like all of the other professionals , to do no harm , and we cannot do something in our interests that is harmful or against our clients' wishes . So , yes , therapy ,

You're Not Broken for Seeking Help

Speaker 1 16:02

get the therapy therapists right . I mean anything you want to add to that .

Speaker 2 16:09

Yeah , I think it's always necessary .

Speaker 1 16:14

It necessary . Just a good me too .

Speaker 2 16:16

And it , and it . I think it gives you some credibility anyway , because I've . I've literally had clients tell me like oh , you don't understand , I'm the one in therapy , I'm the one with problems , and I laugh and I'm like no , I've been a consumer of therapy many times in my life . Let's just normalize that .

Speaker 1 16:37

What was that old hair clip for men ? Right , I'm not just a spokesperson , I'm a customer .

Speaker 2 16:43

Yep Exactly .

Speaker 1 16:46

Everybody needs therapy . It's not . Therapy is not just for broken people . You are not broken If you go to therapy . Look at , look into my people . You are not broken . If you go to therapy , look into my eyes , you are not broken . It means you are doing your best and you're trying to do something amazing . So , even if you're a mental health professional , get your butt to therapy .